Mesorah? Or Radical Departure?

Guest Post by Gershon Distenfeld

Mishpacha Magazine Cover 

Gershon was educated in right wing Modern Orthodox day schools and high schools. He attended Yeshiva University and is currently (and for many years) active in various Jewish educational enterprises in his community of Bergenfield, New Jersey - and is a founding member of some of them.

He has submitted a profound and heartfelt view of current events that I believe increasingly represents the feelings of a great many religious Jews of all stripes. Some openly and some quietly.  I present it here in full. As always, the views expressed are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect my own.

This week, many of us read yet another opinion piece on the current matzav in Eretz Yisrael attempting to justify the unjustifiable and saw another blatant distortion of reality on the cover of Mishpacha Magazine as seen in this blog post (reproduced here - HM). This is really nothing out of the ordinary as foolishness like this has become so commonplace that it normally doesn't warrant comment.

But then I saw the video (no longer available) that everyone has probably seen by now and decided that I could no longer stay silent.

In what can only be described as a disgusting and vile video, I had a hard time even watching the 4.5 minute slander against acheynu Bnei Yisrael. Reb Harry did a more than adequate job yesterday on the video so I won't pile on. But it's an opportunity to state very clearly what is on the minds of many Frum Jews here in America.

And that is simply one word: Dayenu! The majority of Torah observant Jews are horrified at the positions of the Israeli Charedi community.

The fact that Charedim seem to feel that they have no obligations to the broader society other than learning Torah on their behalf is a radical departure from Torah true Yiddishkeit and the Mesorah they are claiming to uphold.

Of late, the Charedi press has been critical of the "open orthodox" movement for innovations in Halacha, and there is certainly some truth there. But they would be better served to look inward and see how they have perverted Yiddishkeit and have strayed much farther from the true mesorah than the left wing orthodox crowd could ever dream of.

People are entitled to their opinions but they can't make up their own facts. So much of the Charedi the propaganda machine in EretzYisrael and even here in America are so distorting the truth and they need to be called out on it. So in that spirit, let me first address the claim that the Israeli government wants to abolish Torah through their "harsh decrees."

If the charedi yeshivos actually learned Nach, they find it replete with stories of real people, dealing with real issues in society – including fighting wars to defend our people.

The Torah exempts three categories of people from their sacred obligation to fight our wars – and there is no talk there about an exemption for those who are in Yeshivos or Kollelim.

When I learn Tanach, I get a very different impression of how many of our most revered leaders interacted with the world around them. I can't find any pesukim that indicate that Avrohom Avinu, Moshe Rabeynu or Dovid Hamelech (or countless others) sat in theBeis Medrash and asked others to support them and their families. Quite the opposite. They all engaged in parnasah!

I've heard all the excuses and justifications about why it is different today. None of them are convincing as this goes against all of Jewish history. It also goes against a man's chiyuv he signs in his kesubah and it defies common sense that Hashem created a world where a group of people can just be takers at the expense of others.

Now let me address the claim that the “Big Bad Israeli Government in general and the Yesh Atid party in particular are out to destroy Torah. Here is a letter to the editor I submitted to Mishpacha Magazine this week.

I was shocked to see your recent cover accusing the Israeli government of making Torah study a crime. I'm not sure how a magazine that is usually quite reasonable can distort the truth in such a blatant way.

By your logic, the government is making studying basket-weaving a crime as well. After all, if I studied basket-weaving full time, I'd be in the same situation as those who are studying Torah full time. Who knew it? The Israeli government believes that studying basket-weaving is a crime!

What is a crime is a citizen shirking his/her responsibility to support the country they reside in. You know, the one that defends them, provides for the upkeep of roads, electricity and countless other things that all its citizens use.

Israel is a democracy and like in any democracy, citizens have certain obligations. People are then free to use the remainder of their time to do whatever they please as long as it doesn't harm others. Some people will choose to study Torah, others will choose other pursuits which I would agree may not be as valuable. But to say that the state is criminalizing Torah study is pure fantasy.

As for the video itself, some questions beg to be asked:

How low can these people sink? Where is their ahavas Yisrael? Are they even aware that achdus is a prerequisite for Moshiach to come according to almost all opinions? Do they not see the irony in littering the streets of Yerushalayim and referring to those who will clean them up as "yoshvei kranos"?

And as Rav Slifkin pointed out yesterday, this can't be viewed in isolation. It is the natural outcome of the current Charedi mindset and hashkafa.

I hate to say it but it sometimes feels like we are a leaderless generation. We may have people who have accumulated a wealth of Torah knowledge but – but a "Gadol" has little to do with the amount of Torah knowledge one possesses. Permit me to quote from a shiur of Rabbi Yissocher Frand:

The pasuk in Shemos says: "The boy grew up (vayigdal hayeled) and she brought him to the daughter of Pharoah and he was a son to her. She called his name Moshe, as she said 'For I drew him from the water'" [Shmos 2:10]. The very next pasuk says, "It happened in those days that Moshe grew up (vayigdal Moshe) and went out to his brethren and saw their burdens" [2:11].

The Ramban comments that these two juxtaposed pasukim both use the same term -- 'vayigdal' -- to indicate the growth of Moshe. The Ramba"n points out that the first pasuk is referring to Moshe's physical growth and the second pasuk is referring to his spiritual growth. In the first pasuk, Moshe grew physically. In the second pasuk, he became a 'Gadol' -- a man of spiritual stature. This pasuk provides an insight into who the Torah considers to be an 'Adam Gadol' [great person].

The Medrash, on the phrase "Moshe grew up and went out to his brethren and saw their burdens," states that Moshe saw their burden and cried over them. He would moan "Woe is me over your fate. If only it could be me who would suffer rather than you." He would then roll up his sleeves, so to speak, and participate in their hard labor.

The juxtaposition of the term "Gadol" (which the Ramban attributes to spiritual greatness) and the mention of Moshe's participation in the suffering of his brethren is a clear indication that the Torah's definition of a Gadol is someone who cares about the fate of his fellow Jew. The degree to which a person feels the pain and trouble of another Jew, defines how much of a "Gadol" he is.

It's sad to say, but many of the people we call "Gedolim" today are anything but. Talmedi chachamim - yes. Medakdikei b'mitzvos beinadam l'makom - certainly. But Gedolim? Not even close. A true Gadol cares about all of Klal Yisrael. A true Gadol loves Chiloni Jews as much as Charedei Jews. A true Gadol actively tries to make the lives of people better. And a true Gadol certainly doesn't slander their fellow Jews who put themselves in harm's way to protect other Jews.

As the gemorah says - in shamayim, olum hafuch ra-isi. Elyonim milmatah, v'tachtonim milmalah. The true Gedolim of today are people who not only empathize with people but roll up their sleeves and work to make people's lives better. They get criticized right and left by other "Gedolim" but they are the true leaders just like Moshe Rabeynu and rightfully should be referred to asGedolim.

So what can we level-headed people do? How can we make a difference? I would suggest two things:

1) We need to realize that this is not a case of elu v'elu. In my view this is a corruption of our mesorah just as much as non-orthodox movements are. We shouldn't be afraid to say it - loudly and clearly. People can't afford to remain silent anymore. Shitikah k'hodaah.

2) We need to stop sending money to any organization that doesn't denounce this perversion of yiddishkeit. I don't think it's good enough for people to stay neutral. Charedei hashkafa is way too dangerous to the future of Klal Yisrael.

Permit me to end with a bracha that those Charedim who see the light (and there are many of them) and realize the tragedy that theCharedei leadership is imposing on its people, are matzliach in escaping to a Torah true hashkafa. The majority of Frum Jews loyal to our true mesorah are in your corner, and we are here to help in any way we can.

An Opposing View

Same song. Different message. Now this is more like it. Doesn't this video say it all? (Hat tip - Menachem Lipkin)

The New (Orthodox) World Order

R' Yoel Teitelbaum - The Satmar Rebbe

There has always been a strong difference of opinion about the State of Israel between Charedim and Religious Zionists (RZ)… the former rejecting its validity and the latter seeing it as the ‘beginning of our messianic redemption’. There is a spectrum of opinion that resides between these two extremes. This is where my views lie - leaning more to the RZ view without the messianic component. But whatever the differences were - though very real - they have always been put on the back burner. In other words we all got along quite nicely as a community of Mitzvah observant believers in the Torah. Which is why there is a large middle class of sociological centrists.

I am very sad to say that this seems to be changing. I cannot remember any time in my life that there has been such a clear cut and open difference between 2 factions of religious Jews. The issue of drafting Charedi students in Israel into the army has brought those differences into sharp contrast. And the rhetoric coming out of both sides make it seem like there will never be a reconciliation. The relatively peaceful past between us is history. We are entering a new phase.

I should note that despite the strong Hashkafic differences of opinion between RZ and Charedim, there are RZ rabbis that seem to support the Charedi position. But there are clearly those who do not.

Now as I have said in the past, I do not really have such an issue with our differences. Despite my strong convictions favoring a draft that applies equally to everyone – including Charedim, I understand why they oppose it. The problem I however have is the disgusting and untrue rhetoric about it. And the way they characterize the brave men and women who do serve. Some of whom put their lives on the line for their people – Charedim included.

There will be a prayer rally this Sunday in New York. I will be shocked if even one word of Hakoras HaTov to the government will be spoken. Because if anyone dares to do that - Satmar will walk out! 

Not only is there no Hakoras HaTov (gratitude) there is vilification. Lest anyone think I am exaggerating, one need only hear the words of Rav Dovid Soloveitchik of Brisk. Or some of the other rabbinic leaders in Israel who compare the government of Israel to Czarist Russia where there were strong attempts  to  disabuse Jews of their Judaism.

And we all know how Satmar feels about the State. And how the Eida HaCharedis feels. And the rabbinic leaders of the Meah Sheraim community. And Netrei Karta… all of whom see the Satmar Rebbe as their spiritual guide.  They consider the State to be the work of the  devil as are all the miracles that lead to victory against all odds in virtually all of Israel’s wars with their neighbors. Work of the Devil. 

R' Avrohom Yitzchok Kook

Let us not forget the words of the Satmar Rebbe, R’ Yoel Teitelbaum. He implied that Rav Avrohom Yitzchok Kook was a modern day Haman by using the same words to describe him as Megilas Esther uses to describe Haman!  Rav Kook was not just your every day RZ Rabbi. Even though he was the spiritual guide for Religious Zionism - he was nonetheless considered by many (including the undisputed leader of Lithuanian Jewry at the time, R’ Issar Zalman Meltzer) to be the Gadol HaDor – despite his position on Religious Zionism!

It now seems to be the case that the entire Charedi world has taken on the Satmar view of things. The entire right wing Yeshiva world is joining forces with Satmar this Sunday to promote the false notion that the government of Israel is about to punish Torah study with jail time. This is so far from the truth, that I find it hard to believe they can say it with a straight face, let alone organize a mass protest (technically – a prayer rally) along these lines. 

That this is a lie is well known among Charedi Roshei Yeshiva. That was made clear by Jonathan Rosenblum in that (now unavailable to the public) video.  Even if one grants that Jonathan was misunderstood, I don’t think he would retract that very clear statement. There was no ambiguity in it. They are pretty happy with how the government (via the Shaked committee) crafted the law. They feel that they can basically live with it. And yet the anti Israel rhetoric accusing them of punishing Limud HaTorah is the stated reason for this rally.

How warped the thinking is, was demonstrated by a video (below) made at the prayer rally in Israel last Sunday. From Arutz Sheva: 

(T)he video features the song "We Get up Early" by Shlomo Cohen. The song features the lyrics "We get up early and they get up early; we get up early to study Torah, they get up early for worthless pursuits." When combined with images from the rally they take on an unmistakable criticism of non-hareidim. 

There are images of Charedi leaders and the crowd saying Tehilim, dancing, littering the streets with flyers - juxtaposed with images of the Israeli Defense Forces… all while playing a song that uses the words from the Hadran – a praiseful passage we say when we complete the study of a Mesechta  (tractate of the Talmud). It compares the rewards of those who study Torah to worthlessness of those who waste their time.

Soldiers in this video are characterized as wasting their time while Charedim are characterized as getting their eternal reward.  To say this is disgusting is one of the greatest understatements of our time.

Of course Torah study is praiseworthy. But not recognizing the value of the army and being ungrateful for their service is disgusting. Characterizing it as worthless is insane!  Yet this is what they are saying.

The truth is that as I watched this video and saw a bunch of Charedim littering the streets with flyers while the song praises them, and then saw the disciplined soldiers whom we know serve their country valiantly sometimes dying for it - condemning them as worthless I thought for a moment that it might be a parody. 

But it isn’t. It was even labeled the official video of the prayer rally. They actually seem to believe that littering the street with flyers promoting their cause is an act worthy of heavenly reward while soldiers that may be put in harm’s way defending their country is a worthless act. Like I said - this is insane! How could they think like that?

If I could arrange a counter prayer rally next Sunday by religious Jews the purpose of which would be to pray for the welfare of the soldiers (instead of cursing the state that will no doubt be theme of day at the Charedi prayer rally) I would do it. Unfortunately I can’t. I don’t think anyone can. And even if they tried, they would never get the kind of turnout the Charedim will. That is the power of Charedi Daas Torah. And they have the numbers. So a counter prayer rally would probably be counterproductive.

This whole thing is so wrong! 

Taken to the Charedi Woodshed

Protesting the 'war against religion' - Photo credit: VIN

Former Director of the Office of Management and Budget, David Stockman will be remembered by me for one reason. It was under his tenure that I first heard the idiom ‘being taken to the woodshed’. I suppose it originated from a time where a misbehaved child was taken by his father to an actual woodshed for a hard spanking. In modern times it has come to mean being severely reprimanded for publicly being critical of your superior’s policies.

One may recall the reason Stockman’s boss, President Ronald Reagan, ‘took him to the woodshed’. It was because of an interview published in Atlantic Monthly that he gave during his first year in office. Therein he retreated from his support of ‘supply side economics’ and publicly berated it. He coined the term ‘trickle down economics’ and used it in place of ‘supply side’. Needless to say, his influence in that office waned and eventually (4 years later) he resigned.

This phrase came back to me with a vengeance yesterday when an over hour long video presentation by Jonathan Rosenblum became unavailable to the public. It was initially uploaded to Vimeo for anyone who wished to view it; or link to it; or embed it into a website or blog. And suddenly it left the public domain to be made viewable only by a password.

I have tried to find out why it was removed from a source in the Agudah world. But I have as of yet received no reply to my request. So even though I can’t be certain of it, I have little choice but to conclude the obvious. Jonathan was taken to the woodshed. I surmise that he was reprimanded by his Hashkafic peers and/or superiors for contradicting the message they were trying to send.  

So much for honest disagreement in the Charedi world. Now I am not saying that Jonathan - or more accurately  those who had rights to that video were ordered to restrict it to the public. But they were certainly persuaded that it was counter the wishes and goals of the Agudah Moetzes or other like minded Charedi rabbinic leaders.

That conclusion is not too hard to reach after reading the recent news about how the American Moetzes acceded to the request of the Israeli Moetzes to follow up their prayer rally last Sunday with one of their own.  

As an aside, I must ask why the Charedi rabbinic leadership in this country waited to be asked. Had they wanted to hold a prayer rally on their own, they would not have phrased their announcement as acceding to a request.  Is it possible that even they  in their heart of hearts believe this is going too far… and that it is only because of their respect for the Israeli Charedi leaders that they are doing it?

The prayer rally in Israel last Sunday as most people know was characterized as a plea to God to rescind the terrible decree to draft Charedim issued by the Israel government… calling it Shmad - the destruction of Torah study and Mitzvah observance. Even though they must know that this is at best a gross exaggeration and in my view completely false - they continue to characterize it this way. And that was the theme of that prayer rally.

Jonathan pointedly said that all that rhetoric was just posturing and the reality is that Charedi rabbinic leadership is actually quite happy with the way the draft law was being crafted. This is in direct contradiction to the message the Charedi world is trying to send to its flock (and anyone else who will listen). You can’t hold prayer rallies protesting Shmad when there isn’t any.

So there will be a prayer rally in New York next week and I ‘can’t wait’ to hear the hateful rhetoric blasting the State of Israel once again for attempting Shamd on the Torah True faithful. Videos like the one made available on the internet yesterday would make that kind of rhetoric laughable. And the last thing the Agudah et al wants is to be laughed at. So the video was restricted to the public.

Thankfully many people have already seen it – including me and many of my readers.  And I believe I gave a pretty good description of what Jonathan said. Which he said was his own view – and not the official view of anyone or any organization. I have always admired Jonathan for his intellectual honesty; his integrity; his willingness to tell it like is; and his talent in expressing those views so well in writing.

Honestly expressed views by people with the integrity of a Jonathan Rosenblum should not be stifled – even if they are in direct opposition to those of his leaders. It is not disrespecting them to disagree with them.

That is where the Charedi world fails in my view. Their Hashkafa of Daas Torah trumps all else. If in their view one of their own has an opinion they don’t like, they will assert Daas Torah and that ends the conversation. The idea of being Mevatel (subordinating) yourself to the Gedolim - forces you to negate your views no matter how much you believe in them.

I don’t know how such thinking can continue to prevail in an large community of basically very smart people. And yet it does. I’m sure that Jonathan is OK with withdrawing his words from the public. That is what his conscience tells him is the right thing to do when he is told that his words contradict Daas Torah.

Which is one reason the internet is such a wonderful tool. The light of truth will surely clarify reality and no longer will there be a sole reliance on the rhetoric of one subset of Orthodox rabbinic leadership. So, in the absence of that video, my post about it (or one like it) should be circulated far and wide – especially at that prayer rally next week.

Update
I spoke to Dr. Irving Lebovics at whose home Jonathan spoke. Dr. Lebovics attended Yeshiva University and Yeshivas Mir in Israel. He currently heads the Agudah in LA. He told me that the decision to make the video pass protected was a joint one by both him and Jonathan. Jonathan felt that he was misunderstood and that he did not clearly convey what he meant that evening - even though he did say what I said he did. He realized this after reading my post and some others on the internet. I appreciate Dr. Lebovics phone call. My hope is that Jonathan clarifiies his position in writing, his true forte.

So…What’s So Good about Charedim?

Beth Medrash Govoha (Lakewood Yeshiva) - Photo credit: VIN

One of the pitfalls of my observations of and comments about the Charedi world is that it brings out some truly nasty comments from some of the people who comment on my blog. I have in fact been accused  (with some justification) of facilitating Charedi bashing even if my posts don’t.

Although there are some people who say that any negative comment about Charedim or their rabbinic leaders is tantamount to bashing them, I do not accept that. Legitimate criticism is not bashing. It is Mussar. And legitimate Mussar should be taken from anyone who is sincere in giving it. But, as I just said, I admit that it can and sometimes does lead to Charedi bashing in the comments. And that is wrong.  Even though I try and delete or edit comments like that, it doesn’t always work. In my zeal to be as open as possible I allow a lot of latitude and sometimes I may overlook something I shouldn’t have.  I apologize for that and will try to do better.

I therefore thought I would make a clear statement about my actual views about Charedim. Just because I have a Hashkafa that differs from them, that does not mean I do not respect them.

There is no greater devotion by any segment of Orthodox Jewry to Torah study, Mitzvah observance, and Chesed than that of the Charedi world.  In terms of Torah study - as much of a fan I am of a Yeshiva like Yeshiva University (YU), there is no question that the focus on ‘Torah only’ in a Yeshiva like Lakewood surpasses that of YU. This does not mean to say that a YU student cannot achieve greatness in Torah.  It is very obvious that he can and has. Rav Hershel Shachter is an obvious example of that. But the truth is that when you have tens of thousands of people focusing only on Torah study 24/7 and nothing else… you are going to get a lot more high caliber Lomdei Torah at Lakewood than you will at YU.

As an aside I have always believed – and still do – that if YU and Lakewood were combined, you would have the best of all possible worlds. That’s because I think that a more well rounded education actually enhances Limud haTorah and ultimately greatness.  But the fact is that this is not the case and probably never will be.

So the usual breakdown is that those interested in only in advancing their Torah knowledge will usually go to a place like Lakewood. While those who want to have careers and yet still be knowledgeable Baalei Batim (lay people) will usually go to YU. Simple math will tell you that Lakewood will produce more Lomdim.  That is to the credit of a Hashkafa which imbues students with a love of Torah study to the point of eschewing all else but that which is necessary to one’s life. One can debate whether this is an overall good idea for everyone. But one cannot debate that this causes a great number of them to study the Torah in great depth and breadth - thereby reaching great heights in pure Torah knowledge to the exclusion of all else.

When it comes to Mitzvah observance there is a reason they are called Charedim. They are Chareid (tremble) at the word of God and therefore (in the ideal) try and perform each Mitzvah in the best way they can. Often at great sacrifice. They rarely will opt for compromise even when it is Halachicly permissible. So they will for example buy Chalav Yisroel products at greater expense even though there is a clear Heter (Halachic permission) to buy non Chalav Yisroel products. They prefer not using the Heter provided even by a Gadol that they (and I) recognize as one of the greatest of his generation.

One cannot not deny the acts of Chesed that this community does. One example (and there are many here in Chicago) is the Chicago Chesed Fund  which was founded and is run by Charedim. They are very generous to all Jews in need regardless of their Hashkafos. If someone needs money to pay their bills they can get help there. If they have huge credit card bills with high monthly interest charges the Chesed Fund will pay off the credit card bill in full which is then treated as loan to be paid back to them over time interest free.  They also have a huge store like facility where people in need ‘shop’ for free - items of all types including  new clothing, food,  kitchen utensils, toys for children, and even furniture.  This enterprise is supported by people of all Hashkafic stripes.

Chicago also boasts the Center for Torah and Chesed, a Charedi organization that more than lives up to its name with an abundance of free services for the Chicago Jewish community. One of which is their Refoenu Society where (among  other things) arrangements have been made with taxicab companies to provide transportation to hospitals on Shabbos and Yom Tov without the need to pay them. 

You present the driver with a voucher which he submits to the Center and he is paid (including a tip) after Shabbos. The user is then sent a bill. 

The Refoenu Society also provides limited medical services free of charge to the community by volunteer physicians and nurses. They have also distributed defibrillators to every Shul in Chicago. A defibrillator is an electrical device that provides a shock to the heart when there is a life-threatening arrhythmia present. 

Another thing I often hear is about how Charedi  Gedolim are always on the wrong side of an issue. This is clearly disproved by the views of a man whom many consider to be the Gadol HaDor today, Rav Aharon Leib Shteinman. While one can disagree with him on some issues – even strongly, I think you can agree with him on great number of things. From a guest post on DovBear’s Blog:

During the Indian hair wigs situation, when it was learned that hair was used for idol worship, R’  Shteinman declared that there is no need to worry about this or to change your wig, and about the concern he said, "this is nareshkeit (nonsense)"

R’ Shteinman opines that the nusach of the siddur isn’t exact and therefore when necessary it can be changed. For 'hataras nedarim' on New Year's eve he authored a shorter version so he could save time on that holy day. 

R’ Shteinman said, "people make a big deal out of the esrog but it isnt l'shem shamayim, esrog is an acronym (in hebrew) for 'al tavuni regel gavah', people search for an esrog for haughtiness and not for the mitzva.

When a young yeshiva student died suddenly, the deceased friends asked R’ Shteinman  in what matter  they should strengthen themselves as a reaction to the death. R’ Shteinman responded that it is a normal occurrence that sometimes young people pass away.

When the friends asked him about the Rambam who wrote that someone who doesnt mourn death should be worried and investigate what is wrong with himself, R’ Shteinman replied that the Rambam was referring to major disasters.

At a panel discussing education, R’ Shteinman said that not everyone is capable of teaching (referring to people who obtain positions through nepotism), "we see Avroham had a son Yishmael."

Regarding the custom of kissing a mezuzah, R’ Shteinman asked "what is the purpose of this custom? You think just because you touch a mezuza it makes you holy?"

Regarding the statement in Nefesh Hachayim (by R Chaim of Volozhin) that were there to be a second wherein not a single person in the world was learning Torah the world would immediately be destroyed, R’ Shteinman said that this isnt correct, since fulfilling mitzvos also keeps the world running, even when we eat or sleep it counts since it is done to help in our service of hashem. It’s likely that R Chaim of Volozhin was just exaggerating to make a point.

Regarding what it states in Chovos Halevosos and is quoted in Shmiras Ha'lashon that someone who speaks loshon ha'ra acquires the sins of his victim, R’ Shteinman asked "from where did they get this? there is no source for this idea in tradition and it is very strange and odd to say such a thing."

R’ Shteinman was asked if it can be repeated in his name that that since all kollel students have cell phones that the phones should be kept off during yeshiva hours. He answered that we cant know why someone has a phone, perhaps his wife needs him to have one....a person can decide for himself how to behave here but under no circumstance should it be to the detriment of his wife.

Someone asked R’ Shteinman whether they should avoid kiruv since they will see immodestly dressed women, he responded by quoting the Talmud: "who is a pious fool? someone who sees a women drowning in a river and says it isnt proper to look at her and to save her"

R’ Shteinman says often that in our time the merit from learning Torah isn’t as great as it used to be since we don’t learn for its own sake. He added at one occasion, "who says our learning is even considered learning? Perhaps our ideas are wrong"

Unlike how most people feel that the world was created for Torah study, R’ Shteinman says that the world was created to perform kindness.  

It behooves all of us to be aware of the good in all people even as we recognize the bad that sometimes exists. Because in truth we all have our bad moments and all segments of Orthodoxy have bad people in them. When it comes to Charedim, there is a lot more to admire them for as a community, than there is to criticize them for. And we ought to think about that every time we say anything about them.

Charedim, Israel, and Daas Torah - The Way it Is

R' Aharon Leib Shteinman

Is there any real leadership in the Charedi community in Israel today? Not according to Jonathan Rosenblum. At least not in the Lithuanian Yeshiva world in Israel. This may come as a surprise to those who have read his columns before. He self identifies as a Charedi.  And the single most stand out feature of Charedim is their fealty to Daas Torah – the wisdom of the Torah as expressed by the rabbinic leaders of their given generation.

One may ask, ‘How can Jonathan say that?’ ‘What about Rav Aharon Leib Shteinman?’ ‘Or Rav Shmuel Auerbach?’ ‘Surely these sages whose knowledge of Torah has few peers if any are worthy of being called leaders of our generation, aren’t they?’

The answer is that they are not leaders. They cannot lead. Because they are virtually at war with each other. Each faction thinks that the other has veered from the path of Torah. So that it is impossible to know who is right. Which sage should one follow?  How bad is it to follow ‘the wrong’ sage? One may recall what Rav Chaim Kanievsky said about Rav Auerbach and his followers. He practically threw them out of Judaism.

R' Shmuel Auerbach

The fact that they came together in for purposes of protesting the draft of their students did not diminish the war between these factions. At least not according to Jonathan’s son who lives in those circles. He told Jonathan the night before he spoke about these issues in California last week, that despite the seriousness of the draft. The bigger issue in the Charedi world is the war between these rabbinic leaders. When there are divisions of such great intensity, there cannot be leadership.

(What about Chasidic leaders? Well one need not look any further than Satmar – probably the largest and fastest growing group of Chasidim - to see the divisions there. What about the Eida HaCharedis? There has just been a huge split there two - for pretty much the same reasons as the split in the Yeshiva world.)

Now it is true that every generation has its leaders as per the Gemarah ‘Yiftach B’Doro – K’Shmuel B’Doro’. The biblical Shofet (judge) Yiftach who is described in the Gemarah in less than flattering terms was nonetheless the leader of his generation - same as was the greatest Shofet in the bible, Shmuel in his own generation. The principle being that caliber of leadership may not be the same, but leaders they are.  And yet it appears that in Israel in our day there is no leadership.

This is an astonishing admission for a Charedi to make – even a moderate Charedi like Jonathan. But I’m glad he’s the one making it and not me. Because if it were me, I would very quickly be accused of bashing the Gedolim. Or Charedim. Or both.

Another astonishing admission by Jonathan (and there were a few more which I will get to) is that there is at least one major Charedi Rosh Yeshiva that laments that the Machlokes (controversy) between the two factions will result in droves of Charedim leaving the Charedi fold. (I never expected any Charedi leader to say something like this. But if its true, that is a good thing as long as they stay observant.)

Although there have been worse ‘religious wars’ between rabbinic leaders in the past,  they have always lead to devastating consequences. For example the bitter war waged by R’ Yaakov Emden against R’ Yonason Eibishitz caused many religious Jews to lose respect for their rabbinic leaders - which many believe was a precursor to the Reform Movement.

Another astonishing admission (…although others have already made this observation – I have never read or heard anything said about it until now) is that the new draft law is something that Charedim will actually be able to live with. This was conveyed to Jonathan by many of the Charedi rabbinic leaders he spoke to about it. The fact that is that it will not be implemented until 3 years from now. And most of these leaders quietly believe they will be able to fill government draft quotas relatively easily.  All the talk about this being the worst tragedy to befall Klal Yisroel since the destruction of the 2^nd Temple is just posturing. 

What are the real issues facing the Charedi community in Israel? Jonathan spells them out quite clearly. The primary one giving credence to the secular side of the argument. The fact that a growing Charedi population that will continue to not contribute to the economy perhaps being the biggest issue. An society cannot survive economically when 30% or more of its citizens take more out of it than they put in. There is no economist in the world that will question that. 

And as the proportion of Charedim in Israel continues to increase the more of an issue this becomes. There has to be more Charedim going to work. There is no alternative.  The political power that Charedim used to have to perpetuate the system is gone. Who knows when if ever it will return. But even if it had the power to force the government to print money to distribute to its flock. It would be worthless in the face of the kind of spiraling inflation that would generate. You have to have a balanced budget (or at least a fiscal policy that pushes it towards a balance) in order to sustain the value of your currency.

Jonathan then makes yet another astonishing comment. Without saying so in so many words -he actually says that we have enough Yeshivos already… and perhaps even too many. The goal of the Chazon Ish he says was to rebuild the Yeshiva world destroyed in the Holocaust. We have by now surpassed that goal exponentially.

I could go on. But for me this was an eye opener. I have made many of these arguments myself - many times. And every time I do, some Charedi apologists come out of the woodwork to accuse me of Charedi bashing. Or Gadol bashing. Or they hint at what my Olam HaBah might be like - if I don't shut up.

But I have also said that most Charedim in the world are moderate. And Jonathan is one of them. I am a huge fan of this former fellow Chicagoan (despite the fact that I have on occasion disagreed with him - sometimes strongly). If this is truly the way things are in Israel, then there is indeed hope. Lots of it.

Rhetoric that Makes their Views Difficult to Respect

Rabbinic leaders meeting in Bnei Brak last week about the draft - Photo credit: VIN

I could not believe what I was reading. Not that I haven’t heard similar rhetoric before. But somehow this time it got to me more than others. It made me angry!

There was apparently a meeting that took place in Israel prior to the big prayer rally today about drafting Charedim by leaders of all Charedi factions. Rabbinic leaders  from all segments of Charedi Jewry in Israel attended. Including those who are at extreme odds with each other about tactics. Differences that were so great that followers of one side resorted to violence against a revered rabbinic leader on the opposing side.

It is extremely difficult for me to understand how any thinking Jew, let alone people who are seen as the greatest leaders of our time by so many… could say the kind of vile and untrue things they have said about those who have been trying to make the draft system a fair one.  It is difficult for me to retain my respect for people who say these kinds of things. From Hamodia: 

It is not a time to desist, when those from among the government in Eretz Yisrael, directed by the prime minister, rose to rebel against Malchus Shamayim, and intend, R”l, to pass laws uprooting Torah and to impose criminal sanctions on those who are Torasam umnasam, to the extent that they will be thrown into prison.

We fear the terrible chillul Hashem, and the elbonah shel Torah, that this involves. We fear the result and are pained by the continuing harassment directed at the Torah world and the constant efforts to place obstacles before its every step. 

How can anyone with a say such a thing with a clear conscience? Let alone rabbinic leaders. Is this not just a wee bit of an exaggeration? Uprooting the Torah? Really?  I keep hearing things like this and it gets harder and harder to believe that this has anything to do with Daas Torah – even as Charedim define it!

How they can say any of this when there are probably hundreds of of thousands of religious Jews since the founding of the state  that have been drafted into the army; served with honor, and have not left their Yiddishkeit behind. How can they say this when there are probably tens of thousands of Hesder boys who have been drafted since its founding and choose to learn Torah while they serve their country in the most dangerous assignments.

It is hard for me to respect this kind of rhetoric. It is offensive to me. And coming from rabbinic leaders that are so widely respected, it becomes doubly offensive.  Because when these rabbinic leaders speak  – especially when they speak as one – none of their flock will challenge them.

They have asked the entire world of religious Jewry to participate with them today:  

The Moatzos Gedolei and Chachmei HaTorah are calling on all of Am Yisraelwherever they live, in Eretz Yisrael and abroad, to grasp the craft of our forefathers in their hands and to gather “kol haYehudim yachad kol shivtei Yisrael anashim vetaf — all the Jews together, men and children” to call to Hashem strongly — that our Father in Heaven have mercy on us like a Father to His sons. We are hereby announcing that all those who are chareidim lidvar Hashem will come together in an Atzeres Tefillah and mass protest on Sunday 7 Adar II 5774 (error - the 7th is next week, the prayer rally is today - HM). May it be a kiddush Shem Shamayim to counteract thechillul Shem Shamayim carried out by the uprooters of religion. 

To make matters worse, there are some Religious Zionist leaders who plan to participate. I don’t know what kind of logic motivates them to participate in an event that is so opposed to their very principles.  I guess they believe that Charedim who study Torah full time should be exempt! But even if that’s true, can they possibly believe that every single Charedi Jew that is registered in a Yeshiva should be exempt?  

The fact that the Kenesset committee charged with coming up with new and fair draft legislation is headed Ayelet Shaked who belongs to the Bayit HaYehudi party which is effectively the new religious Zionist party means nothing to them. That this committee has come up with a rather mild proposal that seems to have gotten quite approval by many Charedi activists also seems to have been ignored. As is the declaration Bayit HaYehudi leader, Naftali Bennett declaration that no Charedi Yeshiva student will ever spend a day in jail for dodging ghee draft.

I believe he’s right. I do not see Israeli police entering a Beis HaMedrash like the one in the Mir and rounding up students studying Torah and putting them behind bars en masse. If for no other reason that there are not enough jails cells to handle even a small fraction of them, let alone the terrible sight of Jews being rounded up by police that would be reminiscent of the Holocaust! This is not happening and everybody knows it.

This is the what these Charedi rabbinc leaders are condemning with such fierce rhetoric?! … and being joined in mass prayer by some religious Zionist rabbinic leaders?!

As I’ve said many times, I understand that these leaders are upset. They do not want any tampering with their way of life. But they cannot truly believe that this is a Chilul HaShem along the line they are saying. They can’t be that naïve. Can they?

No doubt they will bring out the masses today. They are within their democratic rights to do so. Hopefully it will take place without incident - which is their intent.  And it will have an impact if for no other reason then to show how determined they are and how many resisters there will be.

But that does not excuse the kind of rhetoric they are using. In my humble opinion it is not right to exaggerate the facts no matter how much they believe in their cause. I would not participate in something like this even if I agreed with them in their principled opposition to drafting Charedim.

Thankfully there are some Religious Zionist leaders that feel the same way I do. I was starting to second guess myself on this issue because of such widespread sentiment in all segments of Orthodoxy favoring the Charedi view of things here. Fortunately I am not alone. And why I am inclined to agree  with Rav Chaim Druckman. Here is what he said about this. From Matzav: 

Religious Zionist leader Rabbi Chaim Druckman called on the Religious Zionist community last night to stay far away from today’s atzeres tefillah against the chareidi draft.

“I totally reject [the march],” Druckman said last night. “If this demonstration is being held to say that Israel is fighting against the rule of the Kingdom of Heaven, I am so shocked and outraged by it.

“There is no room to say it’s permitted to participate in something like this. [To] those calling for the demonstration using shocking language: where we are living? Are we living in some dark regime fighting against …a war on religion? Thank God we live in Israel - even if I have criticized the state.” 

Amen!

A word of caution to anyone who wishes to comment on this post. Any attempt to disparage rabbinic leaders of any persuasion will be deleted as soon as I discover them. It is one thing to question what they are doing and even to have difficulty respecting their views on this issue. It is another to use it as an excuse bash them or the community which they serve. 

How Low Can a Politician Go?!

Chief Asheknazi Rabbi Dovid Lau addressing students at KBY, a Hesder Yeshiva

Charedi Knesset member Rabbi Moshe Gafni is a real piece of work. He makes the political revenge allegations against New Jersey Governor Chris Christie look like nothing by comparison.

I know how pained Charedim are about the draft and other pending legislation in Israel that they perceive to be an assault on the Torah.  Much as I disagree with them, I understand their pain. Their strident responses are not entirely unexpected. But this has to take the award for the most unscrupulous revenge threat in the history of politics in Israel. From the Jewish Press: 

Haredi MK Moshe Gafni (Yahadut HaTorah) told Makor Rishon that, to avenge the Shaked law, as soon as he is back in power, he will destroy the Hesder Yeshivas — where students both study Torah and serve in elite combat units. MK Gafni also threatened to end all funding to the settlements, and to dry them out, as soon as he is back in a government role. For the record, his one government role so far has been, during the 12th Knesset (this one is the 19th): Deputy Minister of Religious Affairs. In the past, in retaliation for budget cuts that hurt Haredi families, MK Gafni, who Chairs the Knesset Science and Technology Committee, also threatened to intentionally create problems the Finance Ministry would have to spend a lot of state money to fix.

How low can a politician go?! He is willing to destroy other Torah institutions – NOT to save his own – but as an act of revenge?! What kind of human being does something like this? Especially a religious one? Especially one who brags that his version of Judaism is not only the most religious and ethical but the most authentic? And threatening this at a time when many leaders of the Religious Zionist camp (where Hesder Yeshivos reside) actually support the Charedi side in opposition to drafting their students? ...and will be joining them in Sunday’s mass prayer rally?

Does what he threatens to do represent Daas Torah?  Does he have the approval of his rabbinic leadership?

If there is no protest from any Charedi rabbinic leader against this outrageous threat against Hesder Yeshivos, (not to mention the other vengeful things he plans to do) then of what value is their Daas Torah? How can Daas Torah support the destruction of Yeshivos just because they do not agree with their Hashkfafos?

Frankly I do not believe he has their support. I remember well R’ Elyashiv’s response to the slaughter of 8 Yeshiva Bachurim at Merkaz HaRav, the premiere Religious Zionist Yeshiva. He attended their funeral and walked with them in their procession. He did so despite his disagreements with them Hashkaficly. I remember saying that it was too bad that it had to come to this before there was any recognition of them as sincere Lomdei Torah… and wondering why it couldn’t always be like that…. and thinking that it would probably wear off in very short order. Well it did. And now we have this.

If I were a Charedi rabbinic leader in Israel, I would not only condemn Rabbi Gafni’s comments, I would ask him to resign from his seat in the Kenesst. What a Chilul HaShem!

The Million Shekel March

Prayer rally against the draft from June of 2012 - Photo credit: Times of Israel

This is truly astonishing. From Matzav: 

The “Million Man Atzeres” prayer gathering announced earlier this week will take place this Sunday,Rosh Chodesh Adar II, at 4 p.m., on Rechov Yirmiyahu, near the entrance to Yerushalayim.

Organizers expect a crowd of about 750,000, with the participation of the members of the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah of both Degel Hatorah and Agudas Yisroel, as well as the Moetzet Chachmei HaTorah of Shas, gedolei Torah from across the country, and members from the Dati Leumi community.

At the time of the gathering, in other Jewish locales across the globe, asifos tefillah will be held to demonstrate solidarity with acheinu Bnei Yisroel in Eretz Yisroel.

Initial arrangements were discussed at a meeting yesterday at the office of Bnei Brak Mayor Chanoch Ziebert. Logistics of this massive event - which will cost 1 million shekels or more - are still being worked out. These include transportation, security and the program.

The atzeres, it should be noted, will not be a political event, but a prayer gathering, with the focus on tefillah to Hakadosh Boruch Hu to annul the decree of the Shaked commission to require talmidei yeshiva to leave their shtenders and join the Israeli army. Sources indicate that there will be no speeches at the event… 

I wish I could say that I don’t get it - because it is so over the top.  But I do. The Charedi leadership sees the new draft law as a Divine decree along the lines of other Jewish tragedies. When they say it is a Shas HaShmad, they believe it. And to prove how seriously they take it, they are willing to tell their students to close their Gemarahs and show up en masse at the city’s main entrance during its busiest time of day. So serious are they that they are willing to spend over a million Shekel on this prayer rally. A million Shekel ain’t chicken feed! And this is at a time where Charedi poverty in Israel is at its peak!

When one looks at this kind of expense and the willingness, nay  enthusiasm!  … to spend it on a single event in the context of the admitted poverty so many of their members live in… one can see just how serious they are. They are in essence praying to God that He allow them to continue their ways as before. And at the same time they must wonder why He is doing this to them.  After all there has been no greater participation by the masses in Torah study than there is now in Israel. There has never been so much emphasis to the exclusion of all else in this Avodas HaKodesh. And yet God has seen fit to allow their government to destroy it all. This must be how they see it.

So I understand their motives and the beliefs that they are based upon. What I don’t understand is how they can actually believe all this in the face of so much evidence that it is not the case.  Even if one were to concede that the government has nefarious intentions (which I do not), the result of implementing this bill will hardly destroy Yiddishkeit.

What this is really about is not touching the Charedi status quo which they feel is the essence of Yidishskeit that holds up the world. These leaders apparently also feel that if Charedi youth were to begin serving in the army at any age, they will end up less religious because of army influences. They believe that no matter what the conditions are, any Charedi that subjects himself to army rule – an army that they see as anti religious – risks putting  his Neshama in harm’s way.

I believe this mistaken attitude is based on their collective historical memory where Jews in pre Holocaust Eastern Europe were drafted into long term army service. The vast majority of those Jews ended up no longer observant. And the fact is that there is evidence that army service in Israel can and sometimes does do the same thing.  And even if a religious solider will not entirely leave observance, he will at the very least lower his standards.

I don’t know how widespread this phenomenon is, but it is hardly a certainty that army service guarantees lowering standards even in the regular army. Let us look at the facts. Those that are plainly visible. There is a large Dati Leumi community that has served in the regular army. They all survived. They are observant. And are doing well.

While it might be true that some of them lowered their standards and some may have even left observance, this does not account for the vast majority that pretty much stayed the same as they were when they went in. Those that left observance were probably not all that observant to begin with. If the army truly destroyed Neshamos, there would be no Dati Leumi community since the vast majority of them serve. And yet they are a sizable proportion of the observant community in Israel.  

Then let us look at Hesder. Can these leaders really believe that the army will guarantee lowering standards when these young Dati soldiers (who are the cream of the military crop in many cases) joined a unit that allowed them to study Torah most of the time in that 5 year program? How likely is it that someone who chooses a 5 year program because of his commitment to Torah study - will go off the Derech at any level? Are Hesder boys more committed to observance than Charedi boys?

What makes matters even more contradictory to their fears is the creation and existence of military units that are specifically designed to accommodate Charedi religious sensibilities. These programs are by all measure a huge success.  Both for the Charedim who serve in them and for the army who has recognized their contribution and praised them for it… raising the stature of Charedi youth in the eyes of the military that was once skeptical of them.

If these Charedi leaders were truly fearful of the supposed ’Shmad’ of the army, they should be negotiating with the army to assure that Charedim will be able to serve in independent units along the lines of Nachal Charedi.  And when that is agreed upon, hold the military accountable for it.

If at any time they would not be accommodated as promised, that would be the time to protest. But doing it now? What do they gain? Do they really think God will just say, ‘OK, I was just kidding?!’ ‘I just wanted to make you spend a million Shekel to see how committed you are to Me?!’ And it is not like they haven't done this before with the same amount of devotion. They have as the photo above from 2012  shows. Do they really believe that doing it again will change things? I guess so...

Why not negotiate instead of calling for more prayer rallies and spending so much money doing so? Why not see that this is not about destroying Charedi life but about changing it for the better? Limud HaTorah will not be destroyed. It will improve in quality if not in quantity.

And yet Charedi rabbinic leaders seem to be blind to all of this and see it only as an evil to be destroyed. And another time for prayer to God in service to that goal.  And they are all willing to spend over a million Shekel doing it.

What a waste!

‘What If I Don’t Want to be Gay?’

Psychotherapist, Rabbi Benzion Sorotzkin, Psy.D. - Photo credit: Forward

One of the hottest topics of our day is the subject of homosexuality. This is an issue I’ve discussed many times. It is a painful one for me - for many reasons. But mostly because my sense of compassion is not in harmony with the severe Torah prohibition against the sexual act that it usually entails. The Torah mentions this prohibition twice:

‘And with a male – do not lie as with a woman. It is an abomination’ (Vayikra 18:22). And then again,‘If a man lies with a male as with a woman, the two of them have done an abomination; they shall be put to death—their blood is upon them” (Vayikra 20:13). 

Despite these clear declarations I believe that the Torah does not judge people who have this inclination. If a man is sexually attracted only to other men, then he has no sin. It is only when he commits the act as described  above that he does.  

For the record all those who try and interpret this act out of its Issur are mindboggelingly foolish, in my view.  As are those who try and say that the sex drive in any human is something which they are forced by their nature to act upon - and if gay - a merciful God automatically forgives (Oness Rachmana Patrei). That basically stands the prohibition on its head and in my view is pure nonsense.

Nevertheless, I could not care less who anyone is sexually attracted to. While I cannot give my blessing to a forbidden act, it is not my business to judge anyone who submits to his desires, whether that submission is forbidden by the Torah or not. I am not God’s accountant. It is only for Him to judge.  I would instead treat all human beings with the human dignity required of me by God. No matter what that individual does in private. Unless a man flagrantly flaunts his sins in public, I will be Dan L’Kaf Zechus – judge him favorably even if I know they are gay and can only get sexual gratification with other men.

For well over 40 years now, the mental health profession has determined that homosexuality is not considered a mental disorder. Until the early seventies, it was. Since then these same professionals have advanced the theory that sexual orientation is predetermined genetically, so that if a person is born gay - he will stay gay. I’m not sure that has been scientifically proven. But I do believe that in most cases it is impossible to change one’s true sexual orientation once they know what it is.

That said, I do not think that everyone who thinks he’s gay – is gay. I do believe that it is possible for young people to become confused about their sexual identity. And via experimentation with the same sex, in their teens come to believe they are gay. I believe that such people can change their behavior. I have no clue what the percentages are of people like that. But I know they exist.

The question is what if someone doesn’t want to be gay? What if he wants to be like his peers? What if he wants to get married, and have a family? What if he doesn’t want to live with the stigma of being gay in a religious community that does not accept a gay lifestyle?  

In my view, that individual ought to be given the opportunity to do explore his options. A democracy that allows people to change their sex with the help of medical professionals ought to allow people to change their sexual orientation with the help of mental health professionals. But only by traditional psychotherapy and not with what has come to be knows as conversion therapy – which is often carried out by non professionals.

Traditional therapy may not work for them. But it may. Especially for those who are just confused about it. They should have the opportunity to realize their true sexual orientation if indeed it is different from what they think it is. Banning any and all therapy is in effect a denial of individual rights in my view.

The cruel and degrading methods of clinics like JONAH which have caused embarrassment and psychological damage  to their clients is why I supported New Jersey Governor Christie’s ban on conversion therapy. I recall a horrifying description of it experienced by a decent and modest gay ‘patient’. It made me want to vomit in disgust!  Their claims of success are probably either with those people who aren’t really gay - or with people who are gay and think they are cured only to be confronted later by a same sex temptation - and succumb. And then realizing that they aren’t really ‘cured’ at all!

But this is not the case with standard psychotherapy. And it ought to be permitted. Which is why I am mostly in agreement with Nefesh. From the Forward: 

A group known as Nefesh has joined with the ultra-Orthodox umbrella group Agudath Israel of America to challenge a New Jersey law prohibiting use of this therapy with minors 

Rabbi Mordechai Biser, Agudath Israel’s general counsel, said his organization swung into action after receiving requests from Orthodox therapists who “pleaded with us to take whatever steps we could to prevent this legislation from being enacted.”

But even some members of the group supporting the challenge are glum about their prospects.

“I cannot say I’m terribly optimistic,” said Nathan “Nosson“ Solomon, a New York therapist and former president of Nefesh, which brings together Orthodox Jewish mental health professionals. “People are scared, the atmosphere is very hostile. 

Conversion therapy clinics should be opposed. I support legislation that bans it. But I do not understand the hostility to allowing standard psychotherapy be an option for those who want it. It is as if the militant gay community doesn’t want people who are mistakenly gay to find out their true sexual orientation. It is as if they think being gay is a Mitzvah to be worn proudly on your sleeve. They call it Gay Pride.

I completely disagree with that! Sexual orientation is not something to be proud of whether one is gay or straight. Not any more than one should be proud of eating and sleeping. Making your sexual orientation your identity is in my view a mental disorder all by itself! My sexual orientation does not define me at all. And it should not define gay people.

It’s pretty hard living as a homosexual in a religious society that shuns it - even as the rest of the world increasingly comes to be more tolerant of it. If someone wants to try and change his sexual orientation, that ought to be his right. My only caveat is that he goes into therapy with his eyes wide open and realizes that therapy may not work. If he fails to change his sexual orientation after therapy, so be it. But forcibly preventing people from choosing that option via legislation is just as wrong as forcing them to accept it.