Conversion Therapy - Another Perspective

By Rabbi Shlomo Gegeben* 

2018 Gay Pride Parade in Boston (Boston Globe)

I received a very long comment in opposition to the views I expressed yesterday about conversion therapy. It was sent by a anonymous Rabbi who has been in Chinuch for many years. 

In the interest of fairness and balance - instead of responding to it, I have decided to feature it as a standalone post. It would otherwise get lost in a lengthy comment thread. I leave it to readers to make their own judgments.

However, whether one agrees with him or not… and no matter how strongly either way, I ask that any responses to this post be done with the same respectful tone the writer uses. I believe he is a sincere and kind man whose only desire is to do what is right in the eyes of God and man. His words follow.

Rabbi Maryles, I ask you to please read this with an open mind and I request that you reach out to me after you hear what I have to say, because I fear that someone like yourself who means very well can, in writing such an article, possibly be aiding in the life of pain and "torture" of young men that you so wish to avoid.

You have stated that what you call conversion therapy is really "torture" therapy, and that those that it helped were really not gay in the first place. You say that this is based on the so called experts. To say that those that it helped weren't really gay in the first place is an opinion that cannot be proven.

I challenge you to put together a list of 10 highly respected frum therapists in the field that would say outright that "someone who is gay and has only been attracted to men his whole life can never become attracted to women in a way that can lead to a healthy long term Torah marriage".

You yourself say that it might indeed be possible. If it is indeed possible as you suggest to have a happy and fulfilled lasting marriage it will only be possible with such a therapy. Anyone entering in such a marriage without this type of therapy is as you said, bound to cause irreparable damage to not only his wife but the children of this marriage.

You yourself are not sure whether it is nature or nurture. If indeed it is based on nurture how is it logical to say that there is no way in the world it can be reversed. Even if there is a biological element, do you know that today many therapists understand OCD to be totally physiological, yet it could practically be eradicated?

It is indeed rare. Do you know why it is rare totally get rid of OCD? It is because it is difficult, very difficult work on the part of the patient. Go to the OCD center in Modiiin today and meet with a Dr. Ben Arush who utilizing in his therapy intense CBT (aided with medicine) has totally eradicated OCD from his patients who no longer need medication or therapy today.

Could it be that those that don't stick with what you incorrectly call "conversion torture therapy" is because we live in a world today that views hard work as torture.

The fact that the internet bashes what they call "conversion therapy" has to be taken with a grain of salt. The gay community is very powerful and if such a therapy would be possible it would go against all the progress they have strived for in gaining acceptance as an equally acceptable lifestyle.

Rabbi Maryles I am a Rebbe in the trenches and I know that there are many super sophisticated therapists both frum, non frum, non-Jewish who believe in this type of therapy for those who truly want to put in the hard and extremely difficult work necessary to live an ideal Torah life. These young men desire to one day be a loving husband to a wife that they are attracted to physically and be a father to a family with kids to be mechanech in a healthy home.

The fact that this is not publicized is because these therapists will literally get destroyed and labeled as a "torturer" an "abuser" as you put it and even worse. These therapists risk their livelihoods to help these individuals understand the source and basis for their attraction to men and how with hard work they can reach their desired goal of living a much happier fulfilled life as a heterosexual male.

The fact that these young men, many now with adult children of their own, do not tell their stories, like those who tell of their "terrible abusive experience with their therapist", is because these individuals are extremely private. Their life history is not something that they want to announce to the world nor should they. They have kids that they have to protect and they are right to be concerned their children will find out about their past.

Rabbi Maryles, if you reach out to me as I requested, I believe I can educate you in this area and introduce you via telephone to a talmid of mine who chose this therapy after trying many others and who now is living in a wonderful marriage with 3 beautiful healthy children. He is probably one of the best husbands that I know. This therapy has stood the test time as it is close to 20 years ago when the story that I now tell begins.

I have been a Rebbi for the past 35 years dealing with modern orthodox Talmidim both in high school and in Israel.

Approximately 25 years ago, while living in the west coast, I had a talmid in a high school that was one of the finest talmidim I have ever had. He was the perfect student, the perfect teenager with sterling midos. Towards the end of high school this talmid came to me about a "friend" of his, struggling with what many teenage boys struggle with. He was feeling much guilt because everyone thought him to be a great good frum kid. He wanted to know if I can help his "friend".. I couldn't imagine at the time that it was indeed himself that he was talking about.

Fast forward a number of years. I had moved to Israel to become a Rebbi there and he had gone to Israel for two years to learn in a high level Hesder Yeshiva and had since returned to the US. On one of my recruitment trips to America he asked to come see me. i then was blown away when I heard from him how he started realizing he was gay in high school and it came to a head in Yeshiva in Israel when he started to be attracted to other Talmidim in Yeshiva.

After unfortunately not getting the proper advice from his mashgiach in Yeshiva he returned to America. He became depressed as well and started to see a very highly respected therapist. The approach of this therapist was the classic "acceptance" of who he is approach, which for him only made him more depressed. It meant never being a father, husband all things that he understood intellectually was the ideal lifestyle for bringing hashem into this world and passing on our mesorah to the next generation.

I suggested another well known therapist to him that was known to work with guys struggling with this. He really took to this new therapist and respected him greatly but years were going by and he was not really getting anywhere. Very concerning for him and for me as his Rebbi, was that he was starting to get involved in more dangerous activity, to the point where he had an actual AIDS scare.

Back in Israel a well respected therapist suggested to me the type of therapy that you disparage here on your blog . This therapy based on a real understanding of the cause of same sex attraction, was developed by a Mormon doctor named Niccolosi from California.

Months later after doing much research on this therapy and my talmid getting more and more clinically depressed he started therapy with a so called "Talmid Muvhak" or close student of Dr. Niccolosi.

Unfortunately, the therapy was way too difficult for him. He didn't call it torture but it was just too unpleasant. It challenged him to do things against his nature (nurture?). He asked him to do things that although halachikly permissible were actions that the average person just would not do.

He asked of me after telling me the things required of him by his therapist, should he stick with it. I told him that only he could decide, but one thing I did tell him was that this was the first therapist that made him feel uncomfortable. The first one that was making him do hard work. He stopped seeing him and went back to his old therapist.

After dreying for over a year again with the old therapist, who is a wonderful person as well, he came to the conclusion together with the therapist that he was stuck .

He came back and asked me, now what. I told him, sounds crazy, but the "Niccolosi" therapist was the only one that really challenged him to the point where he was uncomfortable. He went back and did the grueling (synonymous with torturous?) work necessary. After another year and a half of intense therapy he got married to a wonderful girl who he told of his past, so there were no secrets. It is twenty years later and he has a wonderful marriage and is extremely successful professionally.

This talmid over the years has been a source of tremendous help to other talmidim of mine struggling with "same sex attraction". He does not push the therapy on anyone because he realizes that it is something that the patient himself has to be ready to put in the hard uncomfortable work and has to also realize that when things get tough there is a big depraved western world out there.

Secular society which we are all exposed to will discourage him in this endeavor and tell him that he is someone that is and will always be gay and should embrace the lifestyle.

Unfortunately, you and many other well meaning individuals making it that much harder for someone to not give up and say that he is doomed for life. Please give me a call, do the real research, with real people and then write your retraction, Thank you.

*This is not my real name and some of the details of the story (have been changed) so as not to reveal the identity of my talmid.